TF2 Competition Restrictions and Maps, What I think needs to change. Options

[the ned]

Last time the tf2 competition was a joke.

When you are able to run 5 engies as defence against only 5 people, it ruins the fun and competitiveness of the game.

I suggest that we run cevo class restrictions for the competition so that we avoid stupid situations like this again.

Cevo means that you can run:

2 soldiers
2 scouts
2 snipers
1 of every other class (pyro, demo, heavy, engy, medic, spy)

This will make the competition actually .... fair, but also possible to cap points / push the cart.

I would also like to see 5 point push/pull maps used rather than payload maps.

These would include cp_well, cp_granary, cp_badlands.

It would also be possible to run cp_gravelpit, but that tends to end up in a stalemate situation.

This is just my input, seeing as I play tf2 online actively in leagues.

But feel free to disagree with me, i'd like to hear your input.

[R4N]

please PM your suggestions to SirSquidness, he will be working on the comp for next event

thanks for the tips!

R4N

[dead_man]

as R4N has said PM SirSquidness. he will run TF2 from this point now.

as far as the way it ran last time however i wouldnt say it was a joke. your the first person iv heard that has complained about how the comp was run.

not having ago but alot of the guys enjoyed it last time. and remember its a FUNCOMP

[R4N]

to ease your woes anyway the ned, that was our first go at running a TF2 comp, and SirSquidness did a damn good job considering the circumstances.

We have been looking into tournament rules, and will be using a more tournament friendly ruleset for the next competition.
Any ideas/suggests you may have are welcome

Thanks

R4N

[TheTacoMan]

fail team is fail. You can't get past 5 engies all camping? Seriously, do you not know what ubercharges are? Even a decent spy and some non retarded combat classes would be able to take them out with minimal effort.

In my experience, we stomped teams that tried to stack (scout rush comes to mind), and the teams we had trouble with were the well balanced ones (we ended up winning btw).

If you want to go for it but imo, let the n00bs stack, just makes it easier for us to win again

BTW: Will we run arena maps next time? I think arena would be more suited to 5v5, but it is a compltelty different kind of game to vanilla TF2

Also, only 1 medic? Doubling up on medics just for prep phase for 2 ubercharges is quite a legitimate strategy.

[the ned]

You see when you are forced to run 2 demos, 2 medics and a spy just to have a chance at pushing the cart, the fun is lost. Because you are forced to play these classes if you want to win. By restricting the classes as such you in turn have a chance to play which ever class you see fit and aren't forced into playing certain classes to have a chance.

I'm just saying in interest of the game, what works for the competitive tf2 league should work for our purposes, as they have set these restrictions for a reason.

Arena TF2 is a joke within the community, as there is no tactics involved in such plays and no team work required.

I know you're going to argue that but in comparison to the other format that I am suggesting, it pales with tactics and team work.

1 medic also means that the medic doesn't just attach to a heavy and sit there leeching.

It means that the medic becomes an active part of the team, effectively meaning that the whole team now has to work, rather than 3/5.

Maybe playing competitive tf2 is different to what you want here, as it's meant to be a funcomp, but i personally would have the most fun if it was more balanced this way rather than the way we had it.

[SirSquidness]

(I could have sworn I already posted a reply here, but it's probably sitting in a minimised window on my laptop. Meh)

TheTacoMan: I'd agree re: arena mode. I do quite enjoy it, and my opinion is that it actually requires a fair bit of team work, communication and cooperation to stay alive. Arena will likely feature one round of the comp.

I'm probably leaning towards liking the idea of class restrictions. However, I was thinking on the way home from uni just before.

Class restrictions prevent OP class combos from dominating. The thing is though, that the other team is free to choose a good combo to counter said OP combos. Got two medic/heavy pairs? Get two good snipers. "Boom, headshot". Lots of sentries? Uber up a medic+demo/heavy/soldier, and get a spy or two in on the action.

As for preventing class selections that will stop a noob team in their tracks, I do think that if the team is smart enough to pick classes to stop a noob team, which classes the good team picks doesnt' matter - they're going to pwn the noob team regardless.

As we discussed in the PM (repeating here for the purposes of other people), the gametype will vary with the round. Payload will likely feature, as will arena. Having mostly the 5 point push-pull maps would get quick quickly (just like I got bored of the CS: S comp after two rounds when I played - I think our team won three rounds out of the two matches, mind you).

Now a few questions for the masses (perhaps this might be forked off to another thread w/ a poll later one)

-Custom maps? Yes/no? I wouldn't pick any obscure ones. I'd encourage the teams to spend 5 minutes or so familiarising themselves with the map before setting themselves to ready for the tournament. And not to mention having them on the TF2 server pre-tournament to practice on. But yeah.. I don't know about custom maps.

-Class limiter? Yes/no/sometimes? A happy medium perhaps would be having the limiter on the first two rounds so that noob teams have a lesser chance of picking bad teams ("hahaha. let's scout rush!") and good teams wont dominate as much ("Let's rush heavy/medic") then turn it off in the later rounds so that the good teams that actually know how to counter those sorts of strategies have the freedom to do whatever they like.

-Maps! What maps do you want to play? Last time we had pl_goldrush, arena_something(I think?), cp_granary, and I can't remember what the other maps were.

Personally, I like the look of the new arena_sawmill and pl_pipeline maps (I've played a mock up of pipeline before - was pretty alright). I'll reserve judgement on those until they're officially released... tomorrow, I think?

I think that's all I had to say for the moment.
-Squid

[Revolution 909]

In my very limited opinion on this whole torment subject, my opinions are as followed:

Custom maps: Sure, why not? It adds something fresh to what can sometimes feel like stale and repetitive strategies on the same maps. Though I do see some peoples points as balance can be an issue (some people can take a competition seriously), but I believe the trade-off for the semi-occasional 'exploit' of a custom map is worth a new twist. Also these maps that players are not so familiar with will allow new opportunity for new team structures and could quite possibly stop the stacking of one class.

Class limiter: I'm not so sure about this one, I'd say no more than three of the same classes at any one time is necessary, but than again limiting peoples play styles can ruin the experience for some teams. On the other hand, 5 engies can be a pain to even experienced teams. No one wants to play a medic that just sits back and waits for his uber to charge just to try and take down a few sentrys.

Maps: Not a big fan of arena, but hey, i don't mind a change. I'm up for any mode. (I prefer any payload or CP)

I think we should try something that will make teams think about new ways to play the game, new team set-ups, new strategies, and just keep the game fresh. I think the best way of doing all this is at least testing a few well made customs.

[Drewfus]

-Custom maps?
Yes, & more so on the warm up..

-Class limiter?
I find that class limiting servers usually force me to play the classes that i less like (can't play well) and make it harder to change to an appropiate class when required, although it leads to more balance use of classes. I would suggest a slightly less restrictive class limit of 3 of each class, as this would still allows for, some what of an scout rush, etc.

-Maps!
hmmm. that one, ow yeah that one too ... (I should learn there name)

[TheTacoMan]

Listening to the feedback, it seems that class limiters might be a good idea. It doesnt really effect my team, because we usually play a balanced team anyway, only thing i am not too happy about is the only 1 medic thing.

Custom maps no, people who have played them a lot have an obvious advantage over people who just play stock maps. I would also say no egypt because that map is just terrible

One suggestion i would like to make, can we make it 6v6 instead of 5v5? TF2 is more suited to 6v6 IMO

Also arena, i would say no, it is a completely different game, and requires a completely different set of tactics.

Lastly: BDAT is looking for a good medic, please PM me if you are intrested!

[SirSquidness]

only thing i am not too happy about is the only 1 medic thing.

Custom maps no, people who have played them a lot have an obvious advantage over people who just play stock maps. I would also say no egypt because that map is just terrible

One suggestion i would like to make, can we make it 6v6 instead of 5v5? TF2 is more suited to 6v6 IMO

Also arena, i would say no, it is a completely different game, and requires a completely different set of tactics.

Even if it's what the league does, I'd put a limit of at least 2 medics on - especially if it moves to a 6v6 as you suggest. I'm thinking what Drewfus says and no more than 3 of each class might be the best route to accomodate both sides. This isn't a decision. Just tossing up ideas.

Egypt I agree. No Egypt. It's almost impossible to offend against a good team and win on one of the maps. I do quite dislike this map too, and the general consensus among everyone whom I've played with on it or mentioned it to is the same - not everyone hates it, but it is rather flawed.

Will consider and converse with appropriate people re: 6v6.

Arena is just as different from the other game types as Payload is from CP. It is a really fun part of TF2 too. (I was playing arena_sawmill before. Epic map! As is the other new arena map). Unless lots and lots of people cry out against arena, I think we'll keep one arena round in there. After all, a good team is one that can adapt and change their tactics as required.

[TheTacoMan]

Payload is not really much different from dustbowl imo. Dual payload is another story, although i am finding it incredibly fun and would definatley like to play a round.

As an aside: How retarted is the new 'weapon drop' system? FFS, i REALLY hope they fix this shit b4 the lan...

[MeaTM@n]

I'm happy with class restrictions. I'm even okay with the 1 medic thing. I mean, I'm with Taco on the fact that if a team has 5 engis you should be able to laugh and go "lol engi rush" (a 2 engi; 2 pyro; medic/spy/sniper team on the other hand...) but really, class restrictions make sense for the more noob teams, who don't know the hard counters.

Can we PLEASE not use custom maps? The reason I ask this is because my laptop runs on hopes and dreams, and custom maps tend to make it go boom.

Arena is not really my thing, and is pretty much a joke playstyle. From the sounds of it, you want to have a system of matches where people play payload; then arena; then ctf; then capture...that's really interesting, but I'm not sure its the best system. Depending on intrest, couldn't we have a TF2 comp, and then a TF2 arena fun comp. (TF2 is serious buisness.)

We played Dustbowl in the final, but that lasted like, what, 45 seconds?

6 vs 6 pls kthx.

I'm actually really interested in what Ned has to say regarding what maps they use to scrim. I'd imagine they would have worked out what maps make for the most fun in a competitive enviroment. Also, who was Ned in the comp?

[TheTacoMan]

5 CP maps are the best for competitions imo (well, granary, badlands, fastlane) as they are perfectly balanced, and all classes are viable in them

[Genome]

Custom Maps: No As long as there is map rotation, regular maps won't get stale, and I think it can be less fun and more frustrating when you have no idea where everything leads on a map you don't know.

Class Restrictions: Yes Less class stacking = more dynamic gameplay imo. Cevo rules sounds good to me.

I'd be happy with a good mix between arena, payload and cp.

[R4N]

TF2 is now a 6v6 competition, due to many people letting me know that it works better for tournaments.

[atticus]

Hi - I haven't been to respawn before but am looking to come to this upcoming one...saw this thread and thought I may be able to help with some competitive TF2 insight

If you're interested in seeing what tournament rules are used in Australia, these are the official rules of the main league:
http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=26599
3G, 3H, 3I, 3J and 5A are the key sections of interest, a lot of the rest is irrelevant for a LAN tourney. All our 6v6 competitions use rules the same or very similar to these (i.e. mirrored maps are played first to 5 instead of 6 on the CyberGamer ladder, which is also more common internationally).

I'd recommend against turning off class restrictions in later or any rounds. It's really more about making a positive impact on the fun, balance and flow of the gameplay for all teams (especially good teams) than ensuring a noob team does or doesn't get rolled (it won't make a difference either way) - so in that respect, having limits like 3 of everything and 2 medics in a 6v6 game won't do anything since good teams wouldn't run more than that anyway. The stricter limits above squeeze a more interesting variety of classes out and really make you value your medic and use that ubercharge wisely. And aside from the way it affects the flow of the game, let's be honest...medic isn't a terribly interesting class to play and it's one more person who gets to play a combat class, and the person who does play medic will feel more important.

The core three competitive maps are cp_granary, cp_gravelpit and cp_badlands. cp_fastlane has been seeing more play since respawn times were adjusted, while cp_well has kind of been on the way out (not on the map schedule...don't know if it will return). cp_dustbowl was once played but has been retired for a long time. Other official maps aren't really played at all. There has been a custom map league featuring maps such as freight, yukon and follower. Some are okay, some are crap. As Kale said though most people probably wouldn't know these if you ran them.

Control point maps are generally the only ones played competitively, so I'm not sure what scoring rules would be best if you ran payload or arena. You'd probably want the same class restrictions though.

Hope this helps~

[TheTacoMan]

When you run dustbowl in tournament mode, it's pretty much like the cricket. The first attacking team either finishes the map, or gets as far as they can until the defending team stops them, then they switch and the 2nd attacking team has to beat the first teams time, or get past the point that they were stopped at. IMO it's quite fair.

Crits and damagespread off? You can debate the 'no skill luck' factor as much as you want, but IMO these things help games run faster. Especially those games when there is an obvious skill gap, it's easier to finish them off when you get crits for racking up kills

Again with the class restrictions, this isn't too big of a serious business comp, so we don't want to stomp out creative team builds, but as was mentioned earlier, a team of 5 engineers, or say, 5 scouts isn't going to be very fun/interesting for players on the other side. I think a limit of 2 classes per team should be acceptable

PS: I like playing medic

[atticus]

Crits are terrible for tournament play imo for reasons you're clearly aware of, but if it's not a serious comp and people dig them, that's cool...I can understand why people find them fun. Using them to make the game go faster isn't a very good reason to enable them though, as skill gap games will roll quickly anyway and close games will just be less close since they can be won over a lucky crit instead of a smart play.

There is really no positive or interesting aspect to damage spread at all though. For those unaware, damage spread just means the same shot done at the same range with the same aim falls into a random range of damage instead of a specific amount (note: not to be confused with splash damage from rockets, stickies etc. which is integral to the game and not something you can turn off). Disabling it just makes the damage from something at a certain range constant when it's not a crit.
For example, with damage spread on, your full scattergun meatshot might do less damage than a half-hit half-miss shot another scout hits you with for no particular reason other than pure RNG luck for him, even though neither of you crit. It won't help the game run faster either since it can do less damage just as easily as more damage - it's actually mostly frustrating because some shots you'd expect to kill won't because you got a bad dice roll.

Dustbowl is fair of course, in fact perfectly so if you're scoring it correctly since both teams have the same opportunity. It's been dropped in competitive because most people just don't like it. If people at respawn do like it, there's no reason not to run it. It can be pretty anti-climactic though, so I would suggest you run it in an earlier round if you do.

[solse]

I don't really see the need for class restrictions, i mean, as others have already stated a good team will have a balanced class as there is no room for stacking in a 5v5 situation and if that occurs the team who does will probably loose as a result.

It's alot better to be able to change classes on the fly to adjust to the differing sceanarios that occur.